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In the latest NdB Sunday Show Chris Steyn talks to Lauren Evanthia, the founder of the Organic Humanity Movement (OHM), about former President Jacob Zuma’s reunion with one of the Guptas in India in the presence of a South African diplomat, while South Africa is struggling to find the Guptas and extradite them for State Capture; President Cyril Ramaphosa’s appointment of Dina Pule as a Cabinet Minister a decade after she was removed from Parliament; and the revelations of the secret messages on the phone of Crime Intelligence (CI) boss General Feroz Khan who fought so hard to prevent access to his devices and now he is in hospital fighting for his life after an alleged assassination attempt – just days before he was going to be questioned at the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry. “… are we just gonna sit here, carry on watching the Madlanga Commission day in and day out and not do anything? Instead of just treating it like a daily soap opera, we should be getting more angry because we are only seeing a small little peek. We’re not seeing the full scope of the criminal enterprise that is our government.”
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Edited transcript of the interview
Chris Steyn (00:01.058)
Welcome to the NdB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn and Lauren Evanthia, the founder of the Organic Humanity Movement. President Cyril Ramaposa continues to disappoint. The Madlanga Commission of Inquiry into police and state, or political capture, continues to shock, and former President Jacob Zuma continues to do whatever he feels like.
So let us start with him, Lauren. This reunion with one of the Guptas in India in the presence of a South African diplomat, while South Africa is struggling to find the Guptas and extradite them for State Capture.
Lauren (00:42.764)
I think this almost sounds like the theme of today’s show is how South Africa is run by a criminal enterprise. And I think the only difference with Jacob Zuma is that he’s quite open about it. Whereas people from other parties try to hide it and try to be a little bit more discreet, he’s out here living his best life, doing his thing, not caring about what people think. And we are run by a criminal enterprise and we’ll cover that with the other stories we’re talking about today.
And he hasn’t only visited the Guptas, he’s also done other overseas visits to Uganda, the Foreign Affairs Minister said, and I can’t remember the other country. So it’s interesting, who knows what he’s actually up to as an ex-president. Everyone’s saying he has a certain responsibility to be more responsible, etc. But he will do what he does and does not care about what everyone else thinks.
I think this speaks to a deeper issue in our country, a much more systematic issue. Because when you are the president of a country or South Africa specifically, although this is a practice across the world, when your term is over or when you’re done, you continue getting your salary as the president and you continue getting benefits. And you continue getting security. SAPS still protects you, etc.
And the other problem is that in all democracies, presidents also have a finite term that they allow to stand for public office. So it’s usually two years. And okay, he didn’t finish his term, but at the end of the day he’s done. And now we have a loophole in our Constitution and a loophole in our system, our political system, that allows a president who’s done with their two terms hypothetically to now still be in charge of a political party.
So he might never be in the role of president ever again, but what is happening? He still has political power. And is that not something that was not necessarily thought about when our Constitution was made? Is that not a problem? Is that not perhaps a conflict of interest? Because let’s not forget the benefits and the perks. A president gets an extremely high salary and continues getting that salary till the day they die, with all the other perks added to it.
Lauren (02:56.545)
And based on that, as an individual who decides to enter politics and eventually work up the ranks and eventually be elected into the highest office in the country, surely a sacrifice you should be willing to make is A not get involved in any dodgy dealings ever again and B not get involved in politics after your terms are over. Your two terms are over.
And unfortunately in this country, we’re seeing an absolute slap in the face of South Africans with how he’s carrying on all over gallivanting and doing his thing and also not only undermining the current government’s attempts at diplomatic relations with other countries, not only having meetings face-to-face friendly meetings with people that are the face of the entire corrupt system that is South Africa but also yeah just wasting State resources.
And we should ask ourselves going forward – because we do have the power at the end of the day if we’re willing to act accordingly – do we want the presidents when they leave public office to get their full salary for the rest of their lives? Should we not review the amount and also review the terms and conditions? And I understand why they get a salary. You know you’re not going to go from president to flipping burgers in McDonald’s. It’s not going to be easy for you to go and get a job somewhere. And hopefully, as a president, you might have various means with which you can look after yourself because you got such a good salary, but there’s no guarantee. So I understand why this salary thing is there. However, let’s relook at the terms and conditions, let’s re-look at the amounts. I mean, how do you as South Africans feel? Let me know, viewers, how do you feel about the fact that our tax money is being spent on this rogue political party leader, ex-president, meeting with criminals across the world. I think it’s just a perfect microcosm of what our entire government is.
Chris Steyn (05:02.99)
Well, the government has threatened to remove his presidential privileges, but I don’t think that is giving him sleepless nights. The Gupta brother introduced him to quote, a “man of God” over there in India and former President Jacob Zuma hopes that that encounter will help him win the next election.
So let us go to the current president, present President Cyril Ramaphosa, and his appointment of Dina Pule as a minister after she was removed from Parliament a decade ago.
Lauren (05:37.45)
Again, same thing. I mean, I think that quite highlights just how little the people in power, politicians, think of South Africans. And why? Why? Because the kind of democracy we have kind of chops off our hands.
And I almost also want to bring in the whole March on March thing that happened on the thirtieth to a degree. But back to Dina. So she’s probably the most controversial appointment in the whole Cabinet shuffle that’s taken place. So she’s already replacing Minister Tolashe, who has a whole lot of scandals around her. So we are replacing one scandalous politician with another scandalous politician. What on earth is the President thinking?
In a country full of forty million adults, more or less, South African adults, can’t we find one single person with a clean record to fulfill that role? Can’t we find one person with the right qualifications and integrity to fill that role? Can’t we find them from somewhere?
Doesn’t this speak to a deeper issue that this country is held hostage by political parties? And as it’s stated in our Constitution that we are a multi-party system, is that not our biggest stumbling block to progress in this country? So you can replace the multi-party system with a criminal gang system. That’s what it is. That’s what we are ruled by in this country. And the Constitution reinforces that system and cuts our hands off.
All we can do is go to the ballot box and vote for a different party. And who says that party we vote for is not going to fall into the same traps? Because once you’re in the system, are you not going to get drunk with power and do the same thing. So what safeguards are there to prevent this from happening?
So with Dina, she’s walked a long road. She’s been high up in the ANC as a leader in the party itself. She’s also been in Parliament before. The Public Protector has almost forced her to apologise for all her lying to parliament. She has been charged by the Executive Ethics Board. So she shouldn’t be anywhere near any political position of power at all. She should be far away from politics. Yet the president of the country…
Lauren (07:54.422)
…sees no problem in letting her become the Minister of Social Development. It’s just an insult to democracy. He’s doing his own thing, he’s running his own criminal enterprise himself, he’s doing what he can to stay in power and doesn’t care at all about the people who are suffering due to the lack of governance taking place. Because the people in power right now, the people who have political power, they’re not governing the country. They are doing everything they can, A, to stay in power, to make sure that they live their best life and they don’t care what happens to South African citizens. This government does not work for South African citizens at all. Only works for its own self-interest. And it doesn’t matter which party is the one in charge currently. So we need a completely different system. We need to decouple politics from governance.
Chris Steyn (08:47.138)
Yes, let’s go to the link between politics, crime, back to the Matlonga Commission of Inquiry, where shocking revelations were made this week about what had been retrieved from the devices of General Feroz Khan. No wonder he fought so hard to prevent access to those devices and now he is in hospital fighting for his life after an alleged assassination attempt. Just days before he was going to be questioned about what had been found on his devices. Your thoughts, Lauren?
Lauren (09:30.421)
I really feel like all of these three highlighted stories fit together.
So with Feroz Khan, interesting character, he entered SAPS in 1991 and climbed the ranks, specifically in covert policing, and he found himself as the Crime Intelligence boss. I think he misunderstood his job description. I think he dropped the intelligence and just became the crime boss. I think it’s again just another insult to our whole democracy.
But what I was wondering, was he a sketchy character before he entered SAPS, or did he become so after perhaps realising that no one’s really in charge of this country except criminals? Do you reach a point as a politician and or as a Crime Intelligence boss or a covert police agent, do you reach a point where you realise if you can’t beat them, you might as well join them. So I would actually, after all this debacle is over, I would love to actually find out from him the personal journey, the personal story: did he enter, just like so many people enter politics, did he enter SAPS hopeful to make a difference? And then did the system completely destroy him like it does everyone else?
And this just speaks to a greater problem. Like I’ve said before, the whole Madlanga Commission, we’re just looking at a tiny peek at a much broader corruption criminal enterprise. And while we’re watching the Madlanga Commission, I think about the mentality of the average voter, me, you, the average citizen. Is it like we’re tuning into the the Daily Soap opera? Are we just listening to the scandal and the skinner? At what point will we actually do something beyond just either not voting, because we’ve lost faith in the system or voting for a lesser of two evils.
And I said earlier I wanted to bring in the whole l March thing, also with the whole appointment of Dina, Minister Dina. So, March on March, I don’t agree with the strategy to deal with xenophobia. I’ve spoken about that. However, one does need to look at how Jacinta was successful in mobilising such a large amount of people across the country.
Lauren (11:50.049)
I don’t think it was necessarily the massive National Shutdown some people anticipated. and it didn’t break out into full-scale violence against foreign nationals, although there were incidents. What we see in March on March, separate to how you feel about the issue itself, I’m talking about the strategy. What you see are people affected by an issue, in this case foreign national, illegal foreign nationals and being affected to such a degree that they’re willing to climb out of their comfort zone and do something out of the ordinary to bring attention to the government.
And at what point are we going to reach that on a mass scale when it comes to the government completely undermining the citizenry of South Africa? At what point are we going to put our political and cultural differences aside and decide, you know what, enough is enough. What’s happening at all levels of government is over.
So back to Feroz Khan. He is a Crime Intelligence boss, not a crime boss. And he should technically have an extremely important role in the country, a role we don’t necessarily read about in the news every day. You’ll be busy with a whole bunch of projects that won’t necessarily come to public light necessarily. But he’s the kind of person in an ideal world, in an ideal system, that we hope is full of integrity, not naive to how power works, but constantly getting the bad guys and putting them in jail or removing them from positions or whatever. Instead we have someone aiding and abetting the criminals. And that is a huge failure of the system.
And I don’t know, are we just gonna sit here, carry on watching the Madlanga Commission day in and day out and not do anything? I see the voter turnout every year has become ridiculously low. And let’s see if that trend continues more than likely, but that’s not solving the problem. I think removing the multi-party system from politics is one of the solutions.
And I think South Africans are getting more fed up.
Lauren (14:07.424)
Instead of just treating it like a daily soap opera, we should be getting more angry because we are only seeing a small little peek. We’re not seeing the full scope of the criminal enterprise that is our government.
And with regards also to political appointments as well, it doesn’t matter really who’s in power from which party. What’s going to happen is that those with decision-making power is going to appoint people to positions that are only going to reinforce their own power and this is the problem. So our whole approach, South Africa’s approach to governance is wrong.
But back to the Madlanga Commission as well with the precious stones, 15 million, I think it is, I think that that is a gross abuse of power, because as we know, the Metro Police has absolutely no mandate to perform such raids and do such things. So this is just about exploiting your position, seeing a gap in the market, and benefiting from crime. So that’s your crime is benefiting from crime. I think it’s an absolute nightmare.
But yeah, I think another issue, just using the March on March example again, because it’s recent. I think only when your life feels daily affected by an issue a person will act. And unfortunately, with all of these things going on, as South African citizens, we feel too detached from it. Not fully understanding how it’s affecting every aspect of our lives, not fully understanding how we can never measure the opportunities people will never be able to get because of government failure on every level. And that’s a huge tragedy actually.
Chris Steyn (16:00.609)
Come November we will know what impact all these revelations have had on the voters. As somebody wrote, and not a South African, but it is certainly applicable. “Every person must choose how much truth they can stand”. Thank you. That was Lauren Evanthia here on the NdB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn.
Lauren (16:26.946)
Thank you, Chris.
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